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	<title>Comments on: Raunch and Its Discontents</title>
	<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Stannous Flouride</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-8911</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 05:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-8911</guid>
					<description>Very well put Tracy, I have several retired pro friends who will find this of interest.
As a former stripper myself I believe I have a rare (for a guy) insight into watching what looks like 'work.'
It has been 25 years and I still recall the emptiness of my relationships with the clients and how that affected my personal relations for a good while after.
I could never visit a strip club even though more than a few dancers have invited me to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well put Tracy, I have several retired pro friends who will find this of interest.<br />
As a former stripper myself I believe I have a rare (for a guy) insight into watching what looks like &#8216;work.&#8217;<br />
It has been 25 years and I still recall the emptiness of my relationships with the clients and how that affected my personal relations for a good while after.<br />
I could never visit a strip club even though more than a few dancers have invited me to.
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		<title>by: Tracy Quan</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-8552</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 06:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-8552</guid>
					<description>Thanks for enquiring. Well, no, I did not mean date-rape. And I don't mean that these rituals are necessarily wrong, or even ugly. I'm saying that, from a hooker's perspective -- from this one's perspective, anyway -- the emotional rough and tumble of casual dating can seem rather brutal. 

When you look at internet dating communities, people seem to be "marketing" themselves rather blatantly, but it's for sexual and emotional reasons, not money. And without that commercial buffer, the stakes are higher. Egos and hearts are directly in the line of fire! I know a lot of people who use Nerve.com or Match to meet prospective boyfriends or girlfriends. I frankly wouldn't have the courage to do it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for enquiring. Well, no, I did not mean date-rape. And I don&#8217;t mean that these rituals are necessarily wrong, or even ugly. I&#8217;m saying that, from a hooker&#8217;s perspective &#8212; from this one&#8217;s perspective, anyway &#8212; the emotional rough and tumble of casual dating can seem rather brutal. </p>
<p>When you look at internet dating communities, people seem to be &#8220;marketing&#8221; themselves rather blatantly, but it&#8217;s for sexual and emotional reasons, not money. And without that commercial buffer, the stakes are higher. Egos and hearts are directly in the line of fire! I know a lot of people who use Nerve.com or Match to meet prospective boyfriends or girlfriends. I frankly wouldn&#8217;t have the courage to do it!
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		<title>by: C.S. Lewiston</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-8503</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 02:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-8503</guid>
					<description>"... prostitution can be a lot less raunchy and brutal than some of the mainstream dating rituals I’ve witnessed. As a former hooker, I’m shocked and puzzled by what young single males get away with — not with sex workers but with civilians."

To what do you refer? Date-rape or other such atrocities, or ugly kinds of things which aren't generally thought of (by men or women) as being wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; prostitution can be a lot less raunchy and brutal than some of the mainstream dating rituals I’ve witnessed. As a former hooker, I’m shocked and puzzled by what young single males get away with — not with sex workers but with civilians.&#8221;</p>
<p>To what do you refer? Date-rape or other such atrocities, or ugly kinds of things which aren&#8217;t generally thought of (by men or women) as being wrong?
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		<title>by: Tracy Quan</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7228</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7228</guid>
					<description>I'm glad we have got past this notion that looks have nothing to do with people's ideas -- though I also won't discount someone's opinions on the basis of appearance alone. The visual package we present to the world IS connected to what we are trying to say. In the case of Dworkin, this was more obvious. She was doing the opposite of a highly polished cheerleader look: the complete absence of polish. 

Like The Pickle (see above), I'm not entirely opposed to Andrea.  To me, she was an eccentric, wild-eyed poet whose political influence was unfortunate -- I wish she had spent more time focusing on her art, and less time being a shill for antisex legislation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad we have got past this notion that looks have nothing to do with people&#8217;s ideas &#8212; though I also won&#8217;t discount someone&#8217;s opinions on the basis of appearance alone. The visual package we present to the world IS connected to what we are trying to say. In the case of Dworkin, this was more obvious. She was doing the opposite of a highly polished cheerleader look: the complete absence of polish. </p>
<p>Like The Pickle (see above), I&#8217;m not entirely opposed to Andrea.  To me, she was an eccentric, wild-eyed poet whose political influence was unfortunate &#8212; I wish she had spent more time focusing on her art, and less time being a shill for antisex legislation.
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		<title>by: The Pickle</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7220</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7220</guid>
					<description>Nothing too wrong with cheerleaders and not everything was wrong about A.D. Still, v good point you're making so let's take a look at you so that us femmes could see if we'd like you to lead a third wave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing too wrong with cheerleaders and not everything was wrong about A.D. Still, v good point you&#8217;re making so let&#8217;s take a look at you so that us femmes could see if we&#8217;d like you to lead a third wave.
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		<title>by: Alex Peake-Tomkinson</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7182</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7182</guid>
					<description>Tracy, this is cracking stuff.  Well done -- funny, informed and sane.  Bravo!

Having said this, I find Cosmo a bit sinister -- the current strapline screams “Hottest sex moves ever.”  I don’t find that empowering, it just smacks of an extra pressure that I really don’t need.  So, on top of worrying about debt, grooming and everything else I now have to concern myself that maybe I’m a bit rubbish in bed and I need to buy a magazine to help me with this?  Great!

I feel really saddened by some of the other posts in response to this article, though.  Are there women out there who really want to knock Ariel Levy for being a prude?  Seriously?  I think they need to read the book.  This is Levy:

"If you happen to be a person for whom this incredibly specific form of sexual expression [the ultra-consumerist porn-star ideal] is authentic, then this is your moment, and you should enjoy it. But if you're anyone else, then you may as well be back in the 1950s, because there's no other sexual model on offer to you.

It's crucial to make a distinction between sex workers and the “ultra-consumerist porn-star ideal” (which they are not responsible for -- Levy lays the blame, quite convincingly, for this at capitalism's door), but Levy has a point.  Female Chauvinist Pigs has articulated something that I’ve been trying to explain to men for years.  It’s an imperfect book but I’d argue with anyone who tries to claim it’s not a necessary one.  Admittedly, I have no objectivity on this: worrying about being neither a scold nor someone who is grossly compromised by her sexuality is a dilemma that is as real to me as worrying about paying my rent. 

I am glad, though, that Tracy’s pointed out how attractive Ariel Levy is because this really, really matters.  Levy has publicly said that she doesn’t want to lead a third wave of feminism because she’s a writer and not an activist but if there is to be someone who will spearhead a third wave then I’m afraid they have to look something like Ariel.  I don’t want to listen to someone who looks like the late, much-maligned Andrea Dworkin theorising about my position in the sexual marketplace because, really how could she understand?  Equally, I'm not going to take seriously someone who looks like a cheerleader.  It’s horrible but it’s true -- the visual matters and I'm afraid that Ariel Levy's argument has that much more conviction because she looks like someone who wants to have sex but not be defined by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tracy, this is cracking stuff.  Well done &#8212; funny, informed and sane.  Bravo!</p>
<p>Having said this, I find Cosmo a bit sinister &#8212; the current strapline screams “Hottest sex moves ever.”  I don’t find that empowering, it just smacks of an extra pressure that I really don’t need.  So, on top of worrying about debt, grooming and everything else I now have to concern myself that maybe I’m a bit rubbish in bed and I need to buy a magazine to help me with this?  Great!</p>
<p>I feel really saddened by some of the other posts in response to this article, though.  Are there women out there who really want to knock Ariel Levy for being a prude?  Seriously?  I think they need to read the book.  This is Levy:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you happen to be a person for whom this incredibly specific form of sexual expression [the ultra-consumerist porn-star ideal] is authentic, then this is your moment, and you should enjoy it. But if you&#8217;re anyone else, then you may as well be back in the 1950s, because there&#8217;s no other sexual model on offer to you.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s crucial to make a distinction between sex workers and the “ultra-consumerist porn-star ideal” (which they are not responsible for &#8212; Levy lays the blame, quite convincingly, for this at capitalism&#8217;s door), but Levy has a point.  Female Chauvinist Pigs has articulated something that I’ve been trying to explain to men for years.  It’s an imperfect book but I’d argue with anyone who tries to claim it’s not a necessary one.  Admittedly, I have no objectivity on this: worrying about being neither a scold nor someone who is grossly compromised by her sexuality is a dilemma that is as real to me as worrying about paying my rent. </p>
<p>I am glad, though, that Tracy’s pointed out how attractive Ariel Levy is because this really, really matters.  Levy has publicly said that she doesn’t want to lead a third wave of feminism because she’s a writer and not an activist but if there is to be someone who will spearhead a third wave then I’m afraid they have to look something like Ariel.  I don’t want to listen to someone who looks like the late, much-maligned Andrea Dworkin theorising about my position in the sexual marketplace because, really how could she understand?  Equally, I&#8217;m not going to take seriously someone who looks like a cheerleader.  It’s horrible but it’s true &#8212; the visual matters and I&#8217;m afraid that Ariel Levy&#8217;s argument has that much more conviction because she looks like someone who wants to have sex but not be defined by it.
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		<title>by: Dr Petra Boynton I Blog I Tracy Quan on &#8216;raunch and its discontents&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7179</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7179</guid>
					<description>[...] Over at 5th Estate Tracy Quan&#8217;s essay raises a number of questions about the way &#8216;raunch culture&#8217; is being interpreted and discussed amongst contemporary feminists and mainstream media. Following on wider reports out this week on the negative effects of sexualisation of girls, Quan&#8217;s essay gets you thinking about issues of control and representation amongst women in today&#8217;s society. You can read it here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Over at 5th Estate Tracy Quan&#8217;s essay raises a number of questions about the way &#8216;raunch culture&#8217; is being interpreted and discussed amongst contemporary feminists and mainstream media. Following on wider reports out this week on the negative effects of sexualisation of girls, Quan&#8217;s essay gets you thinking about issues of control and representation amongst women in today&#8217;s society. You can read it here. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Susie Bright</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7119</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-7119</guid>
					<description>Nicely said, Tracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely said, Tracy.
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		<title>by: miss rosen</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-6882</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-6882</guid>
					<description>all prudes are really just repressed pervs. i guess these literary ladies have forgotten what it's like to be 19 and drunk. or maybe: the problem is, they havent--and that just burns em baaad. leave it to the lovely miss quan to call em out ..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>all prudes are really just repressed pervs. i guess these literary ladies have forgotten what it&#8217;s like to be 19 and drunk. or maybe: the problem is, they havent&#8211;and that just burns em baaad. leave it to the lovely miss quan to call em out ..
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		<title>by: Molly Crabapple</title>
		<link>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-6874</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fifthestate.co.uk/2007/02/raunch-and-its-discontents/#comment-6874</guid>
					<description>"In America, for example, the anti-raunch consensus seems to be that society is going to hell in a handbasket — and college girls are getting rowdier — because sex workers aren’t cowering in their shame-filled closets."

This nicely sums up everything that bothers me about Levy and ilk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In America, for example, the anti-raunch consensus seems to be that society is going to hell in a handbasket — and college girls are getting rowdier — because sex workers aren’t cowering in their shame-filled closets.&#8221;</p>
<p>This nicely sums up everything that bothers me about Levy and ilk
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